An Alternative View to Social Anxiety

[srroc]

Hello all.

My reason for writing this statement is to offer an alternative point of view and possibly a solution to the Social Anxiety condition. 

Firstly, I'd like to start by saying that what I'm about to present has taken around eight years of continuous study and isn't a simple theory that I've just thrown together.  Secondly, I'd like to add that I'm not trying to sell anything, or alter anyone's belief system.  My intention for this statement is purely to offer an alternate view and possible solution to this condition and in no way an attempt to gain anything personally.  All I ask is that people who suffer from Social Anxiety, or people who don't suffer but just live with the condition please read this statement and give it some serious thought.

To start with, please create a separation between the human brain and mind, and the human heart and soul. Please imagine that thoughts and feelings can either be created and experienced in the mind,  but also created and experienced in the heart.  This is a good place to be in before you read the statement as I want everyone reading to be aware that there is a very real division between the physical world and the etheric non-physical world.

I'm a believer in that the brain is the mind, it's the part that defines a human in all dualistic ways.  It's the part that makes one aware that they're a male or a female, that they are rich or poor, black or white, fat or thin.. etc.   These are the physical factors that work hand in hand with the current physical five sensory reality.   The mental mind is the ego of a person and the amount of ego ranges from person to person depending on how much they use the mental mind to define themselves.   Thoughts created in the mind are rarely original, meaning that they are based on routines, mental systems and conditioning.

Consciousness in it's rawest state is the heart so the heart is YOU, so to speak.   It's the part that is completely undefinable. It never ages, it's never evil and certainly can't possess any illness.   The heart is a etheric mind that is capable of producing original thoughts and feelings.  In fact, in my experience, when a thought is created in the heart, it's always very positive which guides my actions productively and therefore doesn't effect anyone else negatively.

In the last twenty years or so, the human mind has been so bombarded with conditioning factors from technology, fashions and cultures mainly driven into the mind buy the television that a huge disconnection to the heart mind has occurred.  This disconnection I speak of is a vital problem to address in order to understand what (in my opinion)  Social Anxiety actually is.  I shall now explain.

People radiate an etheric energy.  This energy ranges from a harsh materialistic and egotistical energy right up to less harsh and more compassionate energy that is less visual.  The more materialistic a person is, the more they need to invade other people's five sensory system in order to be noticed. The less materialistic a person is, the less they will do to be noticed.   So, the etheric energy radiated by people ranges from harsh to mellow.

When a person has a Social Anxiety attack, or just feels 'those feelings'  it's because one is reading the vibrational output of another human or humans.  The feelings I'm referring to are the ones of panic, blushing, depletion of energy, sickness etc. 

A person can feel other people's vibrational output when they primarily conduct themselves from the heart mind.  So, my key point in the statement is that (in my opinion) Social Anxiety is in fact an extra sensory ability!  Another common term for extra sensory ability is Psychic.  Yes, that's right... I believe and know that Social Anxiety is a symptom of a Psychic ability and have studied this extensively since my discovery was made.

Please take a moment to ponder this statement and remember the times that we've all walked into a room and felt attacked by energy and how small we feel.   It's not that we are small, it's because we are very receptive of other people's true feelings.  We, as receptive beings feel other peoples pain, other peoples happiness and all the stuff in between.  Is it any wonder that we feel like we want to collapse in a sweaty mess on the floor?! 

This now leads me to my next points about the current treatment for Social Anxiety and most importantly, the benefits of being receptive to etheric energies.

Firstly, I'd like to explain my problems with current commercial treatment for Social Anxiety Disorder.  I know that a lot of people reading this will be on medications and will have a lot of trust in them and I'd like to say that in no way do I wish to come across as insulting or disrespectful.   I can't help it if what I say conflicts with any current belief systems but if it does, I apologise in advance.

Medical science considers that Social Anxiety resides in the mental mind so they've created a host of medications, theories and practices in order to combat it.  This is a five sensory and dualistic approach to an extra sensory occurrence.  So, in other words, the mental mind has created a solution for a problem that they think resides within the mental mind, which in my opinion, it does not.   If this is the case, the medications or mental exercises serve no real purpose.

The medications are designed to trap a person in the mind, so they're thoughts and feelings are established within the mind and the medication builds a huge wall between the mental mind and the heart mind.  The medications add to all of the current technological conditioning from the TV that do exactly the same thing.  I don't want to sound like too much of a conspiracy theorist here, but it wouldn't put it past to big pharmaceutical companies to cover up the extra sensory abilities that people can possess in order to make a load of money by calling it Social Anxiety? 

It all comes down to a simple questions that only the individual Social Anxiety sufferer can ask themselves which is.... Do I want to be disconnected from the heart mind, or not?   Do I want to learn more about my extra sensory ability, or not?  I appreciate for some, the answer could be no on both counts, and I'm not hear to preach so I'll say no more about that. 

The benefits to being connected to the heart mind or living as an extra sensory being are as follow.  Once you learn to process and convert the feelings that one takes on board from others, you can be in a position to highlight negative issues in other people.  I do not mean cast judgement, I mean, one is able to see possible inner pain or problems in others and can do productive things to help them.  It's very hard to explain, but once one makes the etheric connection, all becomes clear.  Also, an extra sensory being can learn to strengthen their intent through positive heart based thoughts in order to help others.  This is what Reiki / hands on healers do for example.

Receptive people can also take on board energies from others and release them positively back into the world through art work, making music and even just radiating love to all things through being themselves free from mental ego. 

I obviously believe that the heart mind is the part that every human on the planet should be aware of and learn to live from.  This mind when I rediscovered it made me very complete.  I still have those anxious feelings, but now I understand them.  I certainly do not consider being receptive an illness or disorder!  I've lived for years now as a receptive beckon and can sense real vibratory feelings that people radiate even when their material world is working hard to cover them up.  Personally I'd rather spend my life helping people rather than hiding away thinking I had a mental illness problem which is what I was doing previously.

The heart mind also works hand in hand with the universal Laws of Attraction, so life on all levels gets better when residing there.

If anyone is wondering a good way to re-establish a connection with the heart mind, the main thing I can recommend is meditation, meditation and then some meditation. 

I guess this is the end of my statement, I hope finds you well.  Thank you for reading.  Much love.

If anyone wishes to contact me directly, my email is rrocsteev@yahoo.co.uk

Steev R.

PS...  Web site owners, if you think this statement can be helpful and productive to others, please make this post a sticky, I'd be absolutely thrilled.  Hopefully this site isn't owned by a pharmaceutical company, haha.

[WaveyDL]

Firstly that's a hole lot of words to say not very much. I can't say I agree with much of what you say if anything. You have every right to believe in what you like but lets face it that's in the same boat as spoon bending, horoscopes and tarot cards.

The people on this web site and others with mental health are desperate for a solution and I find it sickening that those with Religious/Psychic/Spiritual solutions prey on them for converts to their way of thinking.

We as humans need explanations. With mental health problems there is no way to measure mental health and this unfortunately leaves it open to quackery.

CBT has been assessed, tested, trialed and proven to be effective.
Psychotherapy has been assessed, tested, trialed and proven to be effective.
"Drugs" have to be been assessed, tested, trialed and proven to be effective.
None of these things are 100% but they are REAL!
This is a paranormal hypothesis and like every other paranormal hypothesis can never be tested trialed or proved.

This is rehash of Radiesthesia, Buddhism and Living TV and is just as useless. Meditation does work but not because of any psychic energy. It works in the same way as a sit down and a nice cup of tea works.

It's relaxing.



And lastly for all those on the fence about this B.S. think on this from Richard Dawkins:

Consider this. If a paranormalist could really give an unequivocal demonstration of telepathy (precognition, psychokinesis, reincarnation, whatever it is), he would be the discoverer of a totally new principle unknown to physical science. The discoverer of the new energy field that links mind to mind in telepathy, or of the new fundamental force that moves objects around a table top, deserves a Nobel prize and would probably get one. If you are in possession of this revolutionary secret of science, why not prove it and be hailed as the new Newton? Of course, we know the answer. You can't do it. You are a fake. "

Sorry if this was a bit OTT but this **** makes me sick.

[Noisy]

Well, I think that WaveyDL pretty much nailed it for me.

Steev: Generally speaking, I'm an empirical kind of guy. I'm sure that we can't understand everything through science alone and without imagination we would never have made the technological leaps that we have........ but in the absence of any evidence from you I find your explanation very hard to swallow.

Totally agree that meditation is great though! 

[mrbob]

Hey guys you've smoked me out of my cave of self-imposed introversion with this subject!

I too share the opinion (and opinion is the correct term) that the human race has benefited with scientific inquiry and reason, whereas dogma, for which religion tends towards, has hindered us.

However, I am not a fan of Richard Dawkins and consider him to be dogmatic and guilty of hypocrisy. Your Richard Dawkins quote WaveyDL is an excellent case in point. It proves nothing other than Richard Dawkin's own failed reasoning. In essence, sentence 5 is dogmatic, while sentences 6 and 7 are arrogant presumptions.

Even if a theory can't be proved, that doesn't prove the theory is false. There are numerous examples in history where it would have been impossible to test a theory in one age only for it to be proven in the next, leading to a quantum leap in thought/science. Ironically as Dawkins stated in the quote.

In my opinion, Richard Dawkins seems to have an arrogant **BELIEVE** that we are at an advanced stage of science and thought and only have a few anomalies to tie up before we are all knowing creatures. Whereas, I am of the opinion that humans are still profoundly stupid animals and we are only at the start of our learning of how the universe works.

In which case, there may well be a time in the future where we have the means to prove extra sensory perception. There may be a time, there may not be a time, we simply don't know.

Another false argument Richard Dawkins uses is to point to all the charlatans in non-science based "alternative" methods. But for every mystic charlatan there is certainly as many science-based charlatans, all in it for the quick buck. I worked in the multimedia industry with Pharmaceutical corporate clients and I discovered just how much the Pharmaceutical industry bribes GPs.

I've studied astrology, it hasn't done many any harm, in fact I would argue it has helped as a useful tool to understand the different conflicting parts to my personality. I know others into astrology, including professional astrologers who have given me excellent free pragmatic advice that has helped. Whether the planets really can influence us is contentious and frankly unlikely, it is more likely that astrology has many millions of ways to be interpreted so that it ends up mapped to the psyche, in whatever way is convenient. If the astrologer is a charlatan then this may be given as bad advice to get money, but if the astrologer is also psychotherapist, as many are - particularly Jungians - then they often give very good advice.

Likewise with the NHS, it depends who you come up against. I had a GP who tested an anti-depressant on me (Prozac), even though I stated the problem was anxiety. People who knew me said my behavior changed for the worst and I subsequently attempted suicide. Now I personally think it wasn't the anti-depressant that caused me to do that but I can definitely say the pills didn't help. And what was the GPs solution? To try yet another potentially dangerous drug on me until they get the right one. Now if that isn't quackery I don't know what is. That isn't tested and proven, when we are treated as guinea pigs.

So in my opinion, the problem isn't a choice between science and "mystics", it is trying to deduce who you can trust and asking yourself what are the true motivations of people you come into contact with. Often that just ends up being down to relying on instinct, not great but all we have.

In that respect, I would personally chose NOT to contact Steev, sorry Steev. I'm not as dismissive as WaveyDL but I instinctively steer clear of people who are ready to impart their revelationary wisdom before you've even met them in the flesh. But if you came to the meet Steev, I would be willing and open to discussion of your theories.

Mr Bob

[WaveyDL]

Nice reply Mr Bob.

I have to agree with you that Richard Dawkins hasn't got it perfect reasoning wise and with some searching I could have found a quote that was less childish on his part but the message I stand behind 100%. And I'll take Richard Dawkins reasoning over that any day.

Mysisum (and any of the weird **** religions and gurus claim) can not be true. If it was there would be some evidence of it. The only argument for any of it is that we either we haven't figured it out yet or that it can't be measured.

There ARE those in science who are charlatans I agree and those who get it wrong but none have been given a Nobel prise as far as I know. None are leaders in their field and even in cases like cold fusion and the claims made by Fleischmann and Pons their "evidence" was tested and proved false as bad science. No such cross checking by peers happens for any kind of mysticisms as to disprove one would only harm them all.

As for astrology not doing anyone any harm there I really do disagree. Those that believe in this and other magic things are taking the easy way out of it. They are dismissing what is really happening in their life and substituting it with a magic answer. They don't deal with things because it's not them it's the planets making them do it.

Behind all of this is one big ar** mistake made a long time ago.

A cave man looks up at the sun in wonder and says "Who put that there? They must be very powerful. I'll stay on their good side." And god was created and for most of human evolution we were stuck with various forms of the same flawed logic.

You see an effect. Find something that fits the effect and say it's truth.

This is the biggest flaw in human history. What we must realize is that everything is relative to our point of view. We can view things in many ways The cave man in one way and the astronomer in another. Who's true? NEITHER. The only one that is true is the sun. That is the reality and we can only quantify our view of it. Astrology fails this in every aspect.

Physics is a good example of how we can have 2 views and them both be right and wrong. We can explain how planets and galaxies and work and we can explain how atoms work but when the galaxy set of rules is applied to the atom one it doesn't work and visa versa. Does this mean that either is right or wrong. No it's only our view of them is not complete yet. We only have pieces of the jigsaw.

So how about astrology. That's only a "view" right? No it's a fabrication based on that faulty logic.There is no view of what IS only a view of some random effects that fit the answer you want. For astrology or any other nonsense like this to be an accurate view of the way things actually are then everything else has to be inaccurate. EVERYTHING All science, logic and reason should be thrown out just to make it so that when 2 stars that are next to each other in the sky I can know that I'll get a call from a long lost friend.

Remember it's a view of the truth. Those 2 stars are millions of light years apart from each other and only appear to be near each other from our point of view. Talk about arrogant statements from Richard Dawkins how about this then that the whole universe is only there to foretell who will meet a tall dark hansom stranger.

Your argument about the doctor and quackery is a fine point of this flawed view. Let me first say this has happened to many people and I feel for you as similar things happened to me. BUT 1 doctor making a snap decision and giving you the wrong medication does not make the entire history of medicine and mental health quackery. It makes you unlucky. How many people have been to the doctors and been given the right treatment first time? Billions. You are talking about 1 or 2 times you experienced. A few more with me and 100's more with everyone else who has had this but not everyone and not every time. Bad Doctor, Bad training, Bad day but not an example of quackery.

Do we know everything? No way. Not even close and I don't think Richard Dawkins has ever claimed that we do but what I will say is that we know more that we don't know and we have a dam good idea what it is we don't know.

Trust is important but trusting someone who is wrong is just as bad as trusting someone who is out to do you harm.

Look for answers but don't make up answers to fit your problems. Hitler did that with the Jews.



Again I apologize to anyone I offended but my belief in his is as strong as as anyones belief in religion or mysticism and I believe the world would be a better place without this false reasoning getting in the way of just fixing our problems.

[Hope]

    G..A..W..D!  Let's burn the witch!!

           Times I've thought I've found the answer and wanted to sharing with the world, who wouldn't?
I don't think that's quite the same thing as luring people in to alot of doo doos just to make a fast buck.

   Don't quite understand myself  how this theory works if a person has an anxiety attack and they are all alone, but that's besides the point really because I like to keep an open mind. Hopefully a scientist always does that too.

   There is a scientist (can't think of his dastardly name right now but I will find it) who has studied the workings of the brain during anxiety , identified the circuits/parts responsible and concluded that the brain gets stuck in a cycle between the various worrying departments. Not very hard to believe , but he chooses to cure or improve peoples' anxiety disorders through getting them to meditate. Through just observing their own thoughts rather than engaging in the usual cycles he has had a good success rate of improvement amongst people and when he scanned their brains to see if any improvement also showed up physically in the brain he found that it did and that the brain had actually managed to repair the glitch just through meditation.

    So does that make him a scientist that's been too much at the wacky backy or just a tacky quacky who should probably get the sacky.

                      

          
  

    

    

  

[WaveyDL]

Sounds to me like he's a scientist using a good scientific approach.
He's used established data with the evidence he's found and come up with a possible cause.
Then he's used logic and more established data to come up with a hypothesis for a solution and now he's testing it.

Our witch friend here has done no such thing. He's looked at the problem. Decided on a solution that he likes and has made it fit the problem.

I don't object to new ideas or even alternative treatments. Some of them have been proved to be affective and even things like CBT were once "alternative".

What I do object to is faulty logic preying on gullible people to give them solutions that just don't work or have the same effect as a nice cup of tea 

[Hope]

   Well nobody wants false promises being held up to them , no. But that's all the medical world ever seems to hold up for any of us as well. If they really had solutions there wouldn't be a need for this site.

   I read an article in a mental health magazine recently criticizing the government in their current policies towards treating anxiety. They have alot of data showing them that in the vast majority of cases CBT does not work and yet they have still chosen to train up hundreds of CBT  therapists to send out to the anxious all over the UK to look like they are dealing with the problem. So basically, they couldn't give a toss!

   Anyway , I can't find the original article by the scientist I mentioned earlier , but I found some more things and his name is Richard Davidson in case anyone wants to know.

    I don't see how you can be anti all religion , spiritual guidance and so-called mysticism and then say but you are pro alternative therapies like meditation ...where do you think meditation has come from? And to say that we know more than we don't know or that we know at least what we don't know is complete and utter bolux! You'll be telling me next that my goldfish is contemplating quantum physics

    I just don't see there's any conflict here, just because our inner worlds our not yet measurable or understood scientifically doesn't mean any theories people might want to impart are rubbish. In the same way as some of our medicinal knowledge has come from ancient tribal knowledge that had never been tested by our Western scientific knowledge but works.

   

   

[WaveyDL]

Well nobody wants false promises being held up to them , no. But that's all the medical world ever seems to hold up for any of us as well. If they really had solutions there wouldn't be a need for this site.

So your saying no one ever has any success from the medical profession with mental health? Bold claim.

 

 I read an article in a mental health magazine recently criticizing the government in their current policies towards treating anxiety. They have alot of data showing them that in the vast majority of cases CBT does not work and yet they have still chosen to train up hundreds of CBT  therapists to send out to the anxious all over the UK to look like they are dealing with the problem. So basically, they couldn't give a toss!

I agree with you that it's over used but to dismiss a therapy that has been intensify tested and shown to work in some cases because it's used in the wrong situations is a reckless knee jerk reaction. Also goverment polocy is quite seperate from the medical profession

I don't see how you can be anti all religion , spiritual guidance and so-called mysticism and then say but you are pro alternative therapies like meditation ...where do you think meditation has come from? And to say that we know more than we don't know or that we know at least what we don't know is complete and utter bolux! You'll be telling me next that my goldfish is contemplating quantum physics

Simple. Meditation has a repeatable effect that can be reproduced under laboratory conditions.

It works not because of any mystic powers or energies but because it's calming and relaxing. It's like a reset button for the brain.

What's so confusing?

I just don't see there's any conflict here, just because our inner worlds our not yet measurable or understood scientifically doesn't mean any theories people might want to impart are rubbish. In the same way as some of our medicinal knowledge has come from ancient tribal knowledge that had never been tested by our Western scientific knowledge but works.

The conflict is simple. It's the reason something works. Meditation works by relaxing the mind, calming it. This reduces tension and stress and even anxiety. That's all there is to it. That's all there needs to be to it. To tack on that there are mystical energies that are shooting out of our heads and affecting others around us and are completely undetectable by all known science is the lie and in direct contradiction to physics. That is the thing that makes it wrong and immoral.

Meditation works in the same way as other thing like Gong Therapy. It's a relaxation technique not some magic power.

I'd love to know what Tribal Knowledge works and has never been tested by Western Scientific Knowledge BTW. It's a large field of study with large companies searching for the next big breakthrough. Maybe you should let them know and make your fortune

[Hope]

 What I would say is that as far as mental health is concerned there isn't very much out there that we can say is a cure. Drugs are not a cure for depression just as insulin is not a cure for diabetes. I personally don't know anyone that's fully recovered with CBT but I'm not saying no one has , just that it's a bit hit and miss in the same way that the drugs we're given , even the diagnoses seem to be a bit hit and miss. Why is that ? Because all this stuff is relatively new and there hasn't been enough time or lab rats (i.e: us) to find out what will and won't work.

   Aspirin is in fact a drug that has ingredients taken from tree bark and was something long-used by tribal people before we tested it ...I haven't got the greatest memory but I'm pretty sure that's about right.
   Look around you , The Body Shop , Infinity Foods all selling lotions and potions that have been around for centuries (untested) that people are now turning to because they've lost their faith in Western medicine or just because they can see the benefits of wisdom and experience outside of it.

   The East and West are linking up , you can't stop it happening!

   Why does the idea of energy centres make you think of mumbo jumbo? How long ago were microwaves discovered? I cant see them , hear them , smell them , touch them . Did they then only begin to exist when they were discovered ?

    Your answer to everything would be , ah yes well , energy centres do now exist (if they were proven ) but they're not magical  as the East claimed . But whoever said they were magical anyway ? That's a Western interpretation coming out of ignorance. ... And meditation works purely by relaxation because nothing more has ever been proven ..to you!
   
      That's JUST your opinion , we are all entitled to have one . People don't need to be defended from them , they need to hear them.
   

[Ian]

Can't say I agree with the original post, doesn't really make sense as mentioned before in respect to SA and the absence of people (worrying before meeting etc), and feels a bit like its just been cobbled together from a point which makes sense to them but not to others (which is fine! I think everyone will find their own path that makes sense).

However, there were a couple of bits from it, that did resonate, mainly connection and meditation.

From one angle, I do view SA as a broken/screwed connection. I can't help but feel if I could connect with everyone wholly and completely, and be understood, there wouldn't be anxiety. That is, it feels like a fear of what the other people will or do think, because I'm not or won't be directly connected to them. By "not direct" I mean there's a lot of "stuff" in the way filtering it. That can be our negative thinking, could be lack of sleep, lots of things that interfere with the connection we would otherwise have.

The other disconnection may be between mind & body. By that I simply mean noticing in your mind, how your body is reacting when its happening. When you feel anxious, noticing the feelings (heart racing, how tense you are, how tight your neck is etc) and where the thoughts come from. The problem I find is its easy to get overwhelmed, making anything practical go out of the window, but I do think we can probably be trained slowly to do this more, so it comes more instinctual.

Meditation can help with this as mentioned. I think it goes beyond simple relaxation though (although thats obviously essential), and goes towards observation without judgement ideally. If you actually manage to be fully aware, and notice some of the negative thoughts you have, and alongside any feelings, those thoughts somehow don't have the same significance. You can even comment on them..."crap thought alert" as they appear, you can even sometimes chuckle at them. This is something that seems to be a theme in therapy I've had as well, almost feels like sometimes they are mentioning a form of "constant meditation or awareness" to me. I hardly ever to formal meditation, but often when trying to get to sleep I may do a form of watching and observing my breath and thoughts, and try to introduce this at various times through the day if I notice myself getting anxious.

Ultimately though, I've improved the most with a combination of medication and doing things that I would otherwise be anxious with. I used to be anxious going into a restaurant or pubs for example. I slowly started off with Diazepam (not recommending this, just saying what helped for me), until I got used to the situations, and slowly cut down each time the amount, and then I'd actually find myself going into them without even thinking I needed anything to help. In effect I think it just allowed me to relearn a set of bad behaviors that had been there for so long. I hated all the SSRI meds that docs would push on me, never saw the point and hated coming off them also. 

CBT I think can help (one of many tools), but again I think it can only work by training the mind to be more aware and observe. I personally don't think its a solution in itself, as once you get carried away with anxiety, the ability to actually think straight about how to deal with it diminishes.

GPs I just don't think have the time to deal with SA. I think its best if they refer people to specialists, and have people spend time to try and look at the problem with you, as typically there's a long history there which is hard to uncover and deal with. 5 mins with the doc will never get to that.

[mrbob]

I think I agree with most of your post Ian.  

Diazepam helped me about four years ago but I can appreciate GPs reluctance to prescribe them as they can be addictive. But when taken sensibly they really help manage anxiety.

I am skeptical about CBT myself, perhaps because it is being hyped as a miracle cure. But many people in this group have claimed it has helped them in practical ways and so it appears to be a useful tool to manage mental health.

In terms of therapy generally, in our discussions in the group meets I think we agreed that the most important thing is the therapist cares about us! I think this is more important than the type of therapy. Others may have interpreted our conversations differently.

That said, I'm really into the type of therapy my therapist is into Psychosynthesis, first devised by Roberto Assagioli, a disciple of Freud (disciple probably not a good word in the context of our discussions). It recognises the power of spirituality in a very pragmatic non-dogmatic way.  

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosynthesis]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychosynthesis[/url]

And now back to the flame wars  

WaveyDL, just read your long post critical of astrology amongst other things. I'm not personally offended if you are critical of something I'm interested in. Everything should stand up to scrutiny. I look forward to continuing this discussion. I'm a strong advocate of rationalism rather than dogma. My interest in astrology has surprised many of my friends, actually it surprises me. But as long as it continues to knock my socks off on a regular basis I will continue to study it. I'm willing to challenge your arguments but likewise, if you manage to convince me it is a load of b******s, that's absolutely fine by me! 


Anyway I've got to go for now...

[WaveyDL]

I think some of this maybe sinking in

First Hope

Aspirin is in fact a drug that has ingredients taken from tree bark and was something long-used by tribal people before we tested it ...I haven't got the greatest memory but I'm pretty sure that's about right.
   Look around you , The Body Shop , Infinity Foods all selling lotions and potions that have been around for centuries (untested) that people are now turning to because they've lost their faith in Western medicine or just because they can see the benefits of wisdom and experience outside of it.

Aspirin was originally from willow bark and indeed a "natural" drug accepted by science because it was tested and found to actually work. Some of the things in the shops you mention work and some of them don't and the only way to KNOW if they do is to apply scientific methods to assess them.
Again tell me of one thing, one product/treatment/potion or lotion that WORKS and hasn't been tested by science. We'll make a fortune

   The East and West are linking up , you can't stop it happening!

I not only don't want to stop this I encourage it.

Why does the idea of energy centres make you think of mumbo jumbo? How long ago were microwaves discovered? I cant see them , hear them , smell them , touch them . Did they then only begin to exist when they were discovered ?

The thing that bothers me about energy centers is the explanation used to show they exist.

The explanation is that      "They Exist"      and that's it.

If it was possible to show some them reacting with anything else then you have a start of an explanation.
As for microwaves they are merely a shorter wave version of light. We could always detect them (we can see, feel the warmth from the sun) but we didn't have the equipment to quantify them.
Now I know your going to say "well maybe we just haven't got the equipment to detect energy centers yet". Well maybe we haven't but like my RD quote if all these people can use, measure and prove their existence then why haven't they stepped up and said something and made their fortune? Black holes were thought up as early a 1783 and we still can't point at one and say that's a black hole but they exist and I'm not sure there are many rational people who would step up and debate the issue.

Your answer to everything would be , ah yes well , energy centres do now exist (if they were proven ) but they're not magical  as the East claimed . But whoever said they were magical anyway ? That's a Western interpretation coming out of ignorance. ... And meditation works purely by relaxation because nothing more has ever been proven ..to you!

Yes.
That's my answer because of what science is.

systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.

Science = The Sun is a ball of mostly hydrogen that was formed about 4.5 billion years old
Cave man = The Sun is the eye of god looking down on me and telling me what to do.
In both examples The sun is real but what explanation will you believe? The 10000's of scientists and armatures who have been using science to study and quantify The Sun for 1000's of years refining and correcting through observation and experimentation or the Cave man who just said "It's God" one day?
I'm afraid the ignorance is yours as your not understanding what science actually is. It's not "The Man" who must be resisted it's the most independent way to look at something.
And back to meditation AGAIN. It works, It can alter the brain patterns and mental awareness and even cause some biological changes. I don't argue this point though you seem to think I want to. What I argue agents is that this works because of karma or energy fields and I argue for the scientific approach to define effects not just "make **** up"

That's JUST your opinion , we are all entitled to have one . People don't need to be defended from them , they need to hear them.

Yes this is my view but not just mine. When you actually step back and understand what science and "my view" is then you will see it's most people's view
And I will try to defend people from cave man logic when its sold as being science fact 


Mr Bob

WaveyDL, just read your long post critical of astrology amongst other things. I'm not personally offended if you are critical of something I'm interested in. Everything should stand up to scrutiny. I look forward to continuing this discussion. I'm a strong advocate of rationalism rather than dogma. My interest in astrology has surprised many of my friends, actually it surprises me. But as long as it continues to knock my socks off on a regular basis I will continue to study it. I'm willing to challenge your arguments but likewise, if you manage to convince me it is a load of b******s, that's absolutely fine by me!

With astrology there are 2 main things that don't track with me.
1. Predetermination.
Astrology claims to predict the future to some degree. If the the future can be predicted then there is a "plan", a future that has already happened and nothing we do or say is done by free will. Even if astrology can only hint at a possible future this still means everything is already written in stone and unchangeable.

Now there are theories of multiple dimensions and alternate realities but not one of them is put forward as being future reading or in fact more than just theory. Astrology claims to be fact and truth.

[edit]
It just occurred to me that this can also be viewed as a statistical prediction instead and more akin to Chaos Theory and if so Astrology has been supplanted by science and the Cave Man looses again
[/edit]

2. The planets and stars are having a notable effect on human minds.
This must mean that some energy is moving from these celestial bodies and having some physical effect on something in the human body.

Not only has this energy never been detected, measured or observed but it exists because of, and wait for it, A cave man said it does.

Now it's not that astrology doesn't stand up to scrutiny it's that there is nothing to scrutinize other than something someone said a long time ago. Astrology is a prime case of fitting a ready made solution to the observed effects.

As for proof try google:

Astrology Proven Statistically Meaningless

Astrology is a technique by which people predict outcomes and find meaning within their lives by making associations and connections to environmental stimuli ? most notably astrological positioning. People practice astrology by constructing detailed natal charts to determine the influencing factors at their birth. From these charts, it should be possible to divine predicted connections between all the events that transpire in a person?s life. According to a study released by London based researchers, astrology is nothing more than artistic guessing. The study began in 1958 to track the lives of 2000 infants born within minutes of each other. If astrology has merit, the scientists postulated, the lives of each infant ought to bear resemblance to one another. Fifty years later, the research concludes the individual?s lives are completely unique and not a single prediction could accurately have forecast any outcome. Adding insult to injury, additional testing showed that given a birth chart and the life history of subjects, professional astrologers could not match the two for any of their subjects with any sort of accuracy better than randomly guessing.

One of many tests that show astrology debunked. If you could show me a similar study done under the same conditions proving the opposite then we can continue the discussion otherwise you just banging the same cave man drum

Next we can talk about alien abductions if you like but please don't make me type so much my head hurts 

[mrbob]

With astrology there are 2 main things that don't track with me.
1. Predetermination.
Astrology claims to predict the future to some degree. If the the future can be predicted then there is a "plan", a future that has already happened and nothing we do or say is done by free will. Even if astrology can only hint at a possible future this still means everything is already written in stone and unchangeable.

Free will? Free will? Free will? Scientific explanation of free will please WaveyDL.
Is "free will" scientific? Is "free will" rational?
Has "free will" been assessed, tested, trialled and proven to be effective?

Isn't this all a bit hypocritical? Where does "free will" exist in the human body? I am going to make a quantum leap and assume you consider that all human actions originate from the brain.

OK, which branch of physics would you like to consider, since there is no universal model of physics that I am aware of?

Classical (Newton)? Can free will exist in a classical concept of the physical world. Correct me if I am wrong? Can you explain "free will" in a world of energy and mass? Yes? Go ahead! No? Barney Rubble!!!

I mean: in the brain? Which firing neuron's create free will? How does CBT influence free will?

Quantum? Hey, now we are talking! 

Quantum and free will - yep possible! But how much has quantum mechanics actually been observed? It is theoretical.

You are the only contemporary physicist, besides Laue, who sees that one cannot get around the assumption of reality?if only one is honest. Most of them simply do not see what sort of risky game they are playing with reality?reality as something independent of what is experimentally established. Their interpretation is, however, refuted most elegantly by your system of radioactive atom + amplifier + charge of gun powder + cat in a box, in which the psi-function of the system contains both the cat alive and blown to bits. Nobody really doubts that the presence or absence of the cat is something independent of the act of observation.

That is a quote by Albert Einstein to Schr?dinger about the famous theoretical experiment.

When it comes to "free will", It has to be non-classical. So now we may have a measurement problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_problem

But what do I know? My idea of fun is scratching my hairy balls, staring at the ceiling, picking off a stalactite and flossing out dinosaur flesh from my two remaining teeth.

But on a personal level, here is the good news, I am a Westerner too!!! I **BELIEVE** in free will.

So back to astrology. Answering point 1) Good astrologers don't claim to predict the future any more than weathermen. It is about influence. For example, you have to get to work in the morning and you have an important meeting and wish to look very smart, you have the free will to walk to work or get the bus. If the weatherman predicts rain, then your choice may favour getting the bus! You are welcome to walk it, but you are more likely to get wet and ruin your suit. Will a weatherman ever predict that you WILL get wet?

Now there are theories of multiple dimensions and alternate realities but not one of them is put forward as being future reading or in fact more than just theory. Astrology claims to be fact and truth.

Yes there are theories of multiple dimensions - String Theory. Heard of it? Nobody would dare say it is anything more than just a theory? NOT!!! The Hadron Collider is in fact, at a snip at just three billion euros, the most amazing fair ground ride for sub-atomic particles known to man, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Kerboom.

Astrology claims fact and truth...? Really? Hey I'd like to meet your Mr Astrology, he is giving us a bad rep! I enjoy studying astrology it knocks my socks off I've never heard any claims of "fact and truth" though, amongst the astrology community that I've known. We leave that to the dogmatic.

2. The planets and stars are having a notable effect on human minds.
This must mean that some energy is moving from these celestial bodies and having some physical effect on something in the human body.

Not only has this energy never been detected, measured or observed but it exists because of, and wait for it, A cave man said it does.

Now it's not that astrology doesn't stand up to scrutiny it's that there is nothing to scrutinize other than something someone said a long time ago. Astrology is a prime case of fitting a ready made solution to the observed effects.

Newtonian mechanics - every body applies an equal and opposite force on each other. So whether you like it or not you and Pluto have an energy relationship. Absolute fact! Negligible force perhaps, perhaps not, can we really say for certain?
 
What time do you usually go to bed? what time do you usually get up? Throughout history, throughout the world, people get up in the morning around sunlight and sleep when it is dark. If there is one thing that influences our daily life it is the Sun!

What do you eat? I can predict that nearly all of it has grown due to the energy of that nearby star the Sun, as have you grown and me and vitamin D.

OK, obviously the energy of the Sun, granted, but apart from the aqueducts what else have the Romans ever given us?

The energy of the moon?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jun/05/ukcrime

There are experiments that claim to have "debunked" correlations between the energy of the moon and lively (in some cases violent) behavior, despite the experience of people on the front line. In the meantime police and psychiatric nurses continue to live in "ignorance", despite their own experience.

And of course, the word all dogmatic scientists love and all true scientists despair - the word "coincidence" - the fact that the menstrual cycle is the same (or to be fair "similar") to the lunar cycle - 28 days.

And an even more amazing "coincidence", while we are on the subject. In all the universe, which is pretty big, with no known sophisticated life force other than humans, on one planet called the Earth, it just so happens there is an amazing coincidence nearby, the ratio of the sun's diameter to its distance from earth, is almost exactly the same as the moon's - thus creating the spectacle of the eclipse

And how about Sun spots:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_spots#Indications_of_correlations_in_human_ecology[url]

Throughout history, those wonderful astronomers were actually also studied astrology! Galileo, Copernicus, Kepler. Cave men?

As for proof try google:

Astrology Proven Statistically Meaningless

Astrology is a technique by which people predict outcomes and find meaning within their lives by making associations and connections to environmental stimuli ? most notably astrological positioning. People practice astrology by constructing detailed natal charts to determine the influencing factors at their birth. From these charts, it should be possible to divine predicted connections between all the events that transpire in a person?s life. According to a study released by London based researchers, astrology is nothing more than artistic guessing. The study began in 1958 to track the lives of 2000 infants born within minutes of each other. If astrology has merit, the scientists postulated, the lives of each infant ought to bear resemblance to one another. Fifty years later, the research concludes the individual?s lives are completely unique and not a single prediction could accurately have forecast any outcome. Adding insult to injury, additional testing showed that given a birth chart and the life history of subjects, professional astrologers could not match the two for any of their subjects with any sort of accuracy better than randomly guessing.

One of many tests that show astrology debunked. If you could show me a similar study done under the same conditions proving the opposite then we can continue the discussion otherwise you just banging the same cave man drum

Proof? You sure mate?

Can you provide further details of that experiment WaveyDL and others - the actual debunking scientific papers that you refer to? The quote you provided isn't proof. I could easily provide similar web declarations. Without reference to the original experiments the quote means little. Not to say there isn't some merit in some parts of the quote you've given but proof, NO!

Proof of random guessing? Can you prove randomness? Please provide scientific evidence of how randomness is proven. I suspect the quote meant they deduced randomness but deduction and proof are different. But I'm banging on aren't I. Getting my bear skin all in a tangle.

Blimey that was a long reply, but then again there isn't much to do around here other than to let rip a primordial fluctuation after eating a fatty pterodactyl, but that is cosmic inflation for you, you have one big bang and half an hour later you want another!

[WaveyDL]

Sorry this is a quick(ish) reply as dinner is cooking.

Free will? Free will? Free will? Scientific explanation of free will please WaveyDL.
Is "free will" scientific? Is "free will" rational?
Has "free will" been assessed, tested, trialled and proven to be effective?

Guess you didn't like that then? What I was trying to say is that if predetermination is the case then we are not making any choices as the thing we are about to do is already planned out. Your getting a little pedantic about my terminology so just read this and have an argument with yourself (I've not read it all as TBH I don't care). I think you know what I was trying to say.

Isn't this all a bit hypocritical? Where does "free will" exist in the human body? I am going to make a quantum leap and assume you consider that all human actions originate from the brain.

Oh dear. No Free will is a concept and your again being pedantic and trying to trip me up with terminology. Human decision is 100% controlled from the brain with a good deal of influence coming from other body parts and outside stimuli.

Get over the free will argument your having with yourself. It's not a thing, it's not a measurement it's a concept. We either have free will I.E. I chose to go left or right because of a set of stimuli, experience and needs or it's "written in the stars" that I'm going right and I have no choice in the matter.

So gonna skip the rest of your free will rant as it's got nothing to do with what we're talking about

Yes there are theories of multiple dimensions - String Theory. Heard of it? Nobody would dare say it is anything more than just a theory? NOT!!! The Hadron Collider is in fact, at a snip at just three billion euros, the most amazing fair ground ride for sub-atomic particles known to man, weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee! Kerboom.

erm ok not sure what your point is but lay off the coffee

Astrology claims fact and truth...? Really? Hey I'd like to meet your Mr Astrology, he is giving us a bad rep! I enjoy studying astrology it knocks my socks off I've never heard any claims of "fact and truth" though, amongst the astrology community that I've known. We leave that to the dogmatic.

Astrology makes claims that it can predict some aspect of the future and how peoples lives will turn out. They make this claim with no logic other than someone a long time ago said it. Sorry if again you want to argue over terminology I should never have said that.
Astrology does not claim fact and truth because it's got nothing to claim with other than guessing and cold reading and oodles of dogma.

What time do you usually go to bed? what time do you usually get up? Throughout history, throughout the world, people get up in the morning around sunlight and sleep when it is dark. If there is one thing that influences our daily life it is the Sun!

We get up in the morning due to the sun yes. But not because of any predictive powers or mystic energies sending us subliminal messages. We get up when the sun comes up because it gets light. When it goes away again it's dark so we sleep. The influence is there but it's nothing amazing it's simple practicality.

Newtonian mechanics - every body applies an equal and opposite force on each other. So whether you like it or not you and Pluto have an energy relationship. Absolute fact! Negligible force perhaps, perhaps not, can we really say for certain?

I think your hinting at that when Pluto moves that something in my head is effected it and makes me turn right or left? I wonder what it is? Any ideas?

And of course, the word all dogmatic scientists love and all true scientists despair - the word "coincidence" - the fact that the menstrual cycle is the same (or to be fair "similar") to the lunar cycle - 28 days.

see large number theory below. This is amazing only so long as it's planned by something or someone.

And an even more amazing "coincidence", while we are on the subject. In all the universe, which is pretty big, with no known sophisticated life force other than humans, on one planet called the Earth, it just so happens there is an amazing coincidence nearby, the ratio of the sun's diameter to its distance from earth, is almost exactly the same as the moon's - thus creating the spectacle of the eclipse

Two independent numbers are kind of the same? Well if this is the basis for your argument then lets run with it.
Large number theory. We have billions of galaxies, with billions of stars and planets with a near infinite time line. And this has happened once (that we know of).

So that's a billion billion billion to one chance that this could happen. And it's happened. Once (that we know of) What's your point?

There are experiments that claim to have "debunked" correlations between the energy of the moon and lively (in some cases violent) behavior, despite the experience of people on the front line. In the meantime police and psychiatric nurses continue to live in "ignorance", despite their own experience.

So mystic powers or increased visibility at night and social programming? Hmmm I'll take number 2 please Bob

Can you provide further details of that experiment WaveyDL and others - the actual debunking scientific papers that you refer to? The quote you provided isn't proof. I could easily provide similar web declarations. Without reference to the original experiments the quote means little. Not to say there isn't some merit in some parts of the quote you've given but proof, NO!

Nope I can't find the study in it's entirety but with every aspect of human knowledge it's your job to prove your theory not mine to disprove it unless you want to use the same old tired answer as most religions and say "It can't be proved" and then your right up there with the original poster. Again I didn't realise you were so pedantic and will only used referenced data in the future IF you do the same

Proof of random guessing?Huh? Can you prove randomness? Please provide scientific evidence of how randomness is proven. I suspect the quote meant they deduced randomness but deduction and proof are different. But I'm banging on aren't I. Getting my bear skin all in a tangle.

Randomness is the opposite of planned and again stop being pedantic. If you want to have an argument with someone about it go here. I'm not going to argue it.

Anyway you can ignore all that and still go back to the main point and that is Astrology is based ONLY on what people have said fits the data. It's not a theory made from the data and that's why it's in the same boat as pixies, wigi boards and torot cards. Unless you can show me how the theorioes have been extrapolated FROM the data and not AROUND the data you don't have a leg to stand on.

So go have a think, do a little googeling and try to come up with something else